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 Surferdad |
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Posts: 1565 (07/31/08 07:25 PM) Member |
Yes, a big relief. It was a distraction and the team looked bad in consecutive series against the Angels and Yankees. IMO, they didn't give up a whole lot.
Hansen was just unable to take it to the next level and Moss was unproven (though could become a decent major leaguer in time).
Lots of deadline action with aging big stars. Pudge Rodriguez and Ken Griffey also on the move. |
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ZekeMowattFan |
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Posts: 990 (07/31/08 07:40 PM) 07-08 celtics17 Fantasy League Champion |
Bay's OPS over the past few years is very close to Manny's... so we might not lose too much offensively. And that's not even factoring in the
defensive upgrade he gives us in the outfield.
I loved Manny, I won't say anything about him on the way out that I didn't say when he was here. I will say, his behavior this year was very uncharacteristic for him. Usually, when he has his moments, they're lapses in focus or hustle. This year, they turned violent at times. I don't get what set him off like that. I always felt that Theo and the owners really didn't want his contract. His was the last contract remaining of those that were signed by his predecessor. |
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Surferdad |
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Posts: 1566 (07/31/08 07:57 PM) Member |
Like I said before, Manny crossed the line, IMO, when he got physical with Youkilis. That's not acceptable. Now I don't condone violence in any form,
but you have to figure Youk and that trainer must have said something that set Manny off. They probably called him out for his antics or anti-team attitude.
Manny didnt' have the maturity to keep his emotions in check. Sure he was an entertaining clown, but I will not miss him one bit.
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Mikemartin |
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Posts: 299 (07/31/08 08:34 PM) VIP Member |
Truth be told, I think a lot of this nonsense started after Julian Tavarez was released. Not saying its the reason, that would be insane, but I think it was the spark. Tavarez was Manny's best friend on the team, their friendship went back to their days together in Cleveland. Tavarez was released in late May, then in early June, Manny had the dugout thing with Youk. A couple weeks later, he pushes a trainer or secretary or whatever he was to the ground. Then he starts questioning whether or not the Sox are straight-forward with him about is contract situation for the following year. Until finally, last week he asks for a trade. My Tavarez getting released being the spark theory would explain why Manny seems to think the Red Sox mistreat the players. |
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JMost |
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Posts: 1131 (07/31/08 09:23 PM) Rondoism President |
Here's what I'm wondering. Did Manny continue to act more and more outrageously in a conscious and intentional effort to make himself so undesirable
to the Sox that they virtually HAD to trade him, knowing that for them to do so he would have to waive his no-trade clause, and that he could insist on the new
team not picking up his options as a pre-condition of his waiving it. Why would he do this? It's all about the money. Somehow he got the idea that
someone is going to give him $100 million over four years. But guess what? He's not going to get anywhere near that. In fact, he won't get anywhere
near the $20 million he would have gotten if he kept his mouth shut, played hard and showed up every day to help his team win. Manny is a certain first ballot
Hall-of-Famer, but at this point in his career he's a 30 HR 100 RBI guy, not the 40 HR 140 RBI guy he was 3 years ago. And he'll be 40 at the end of
any four year deal. Who is insane enough to pay him that? You think the Yankees want him? Think again. They know perhaps better than anyone how unreliable
he is. Who else is going to pony up for him at this point? Maybe Mark Cuban if he buys the Cubs. Maybe.
I enjoyed watching Manny, and am grateful to all the Sox players who helped put an end to our collective suffering in '04, but I am thrilled he is gone now. You just can't allow that kind of negative energy to hang around your team. It's not good for winning and it's not good for your self-respect. |
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ManchvegasBob |
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Posts: 2071 (07/31/08 09:58 PM) Juan(abee) Hollinger |
I think the majority of the country think the Red Sox took a huge hit with that trade based on the comparison of Bay vs. Ramirez straight up, like the Red Sox
are mailing in the season - and that couldn't be further from the truth as you guys already know.
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JMost |
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Posts: 1132 (07/31/08 10:22 PM) Rondoism President |
Your average fan knows reputation more than reality, as evidenced by the All-Star voting many years.
I'm surprised I haven't seen the term "addition by subtraction" used about this trade. Manny had become so toxic that he was dragging the whole team down. I'm sure in some ways Papi is sad to see Manny go, but in other ways he's thrilled to not have to explain Manny any more. |
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Mikemartin |
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Posts: 300 (08/01/08 05:25 AM) VIP Member |
Yea actually I DO think there are teams thatwill pay him. I will put up a Benji that says Manny is in the bronx next year. NY has tons of money coming off the books next season, and they have been decimated by injuries at LF the last 2 years. I fully expect Manny to be a Yankee next year. |
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Jughead |
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Posts: 2114 (08/01/08 06:57 AM) Mamba Sucks |
See, somehow I expect him to be a Met...
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Surferdad |
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Posts: 1567 (08/01/08 07:01 AM) Member |
JMost wrote: Used extensively in the Celticsblog thread about the trade. |
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JMost |
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Posts: 1133 (08/01/08 07:38 AM) Rondoism President |
I also saw it this morning after I posted it above.
It seems that by the end pretty much everyone knew it was a necessary move. |
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ZekeMowattFan |
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Posts: 993 (08/01/08 10:17 AM) 07-08 celtics17 Fantasy League Champion |
Actually, the more I look at this trade, it's not addition by subtraction. It's addition, period.
Most of the "stat-heads" think Boston came out a better team in this deal, and not because of the "one-off" antics by Manny. I don't profess to understand the hard-core numbers, but in the few I do understand, I looked at closely for the past few years. - Manny's OPS+ (OPS, normalized for league and park factors) is 140, Bay's is 138 for this year (a league average player is 100). Their past few years are comparable, as well. Their WARP3 numbers (wins above replacement player, normalized across all seasons) are similar, as well. This tells me Bay is a very, very slight dropoff from Manny offensively. - Fielding wise, Bay is a below-average defender. However, Manny is one of the league's worst, and FRAA (fielding runs above average) shows that Bay is at least a slight improvement. - I don't know of any good baserunning stats. Neither will steal a high rate of bases, and I don't know (or understand) any good stats to indicate things like going from first to third on a single, breaking up a double-play, etc. However, after watching Manny, any player that at least has some hustle will be an upgrade. I haven't watched Bay much, so I can't definitively say this, but I'd add we upgraded our baserunning a little bit. - Jason Bay's played more games than Manny over the past few years. So, we'll have to use bench players less, which improves the team over the long run. - Also, Bay's 6 years younger than Manny. Because of this, we're definitely a better team next year and beyond. - Oh yeah, and there were reportedly some off-field problems with Manny, as well ;-) I don't know if I'd go as far to say that we're a better team now (although I could see it turning out to be true), but I will say we're definitely not a worse team. Jason Bay is a very good player. |
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ZekeMowattFan |
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Posts: 996 (08/03/08 08:55 AM) 07-08 celtics17 Fantasy League Champion |
Let me repeat: a very good player. Anyone catch either of the Oakland games?
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Surferdad |
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Posts: 1570 (08/03/08 09:56 AM) Member |
I missed both Zeke, but watching the scores and reading game summaries every day. Yes, I obviously like what I see from Bay so far, but the 2 victories against
Oakland are due to the starting pitching getting back on track. That is the key for this team (really all teams) and help to mask the weakness they have in
middle relief.
I just hope Bay's early success is not just due to his unfamiliarity to AL pitchers. |
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JMost |
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Posts: 1137 (08/03/08 10:21 AM) Rondoism President |
I saw both games and am glad Bay got off to a good start in Boston. The last thing he needed was to struggle early and have the fans get on him.
I'm not worried about the pitchers figuring him out. I think the advantage is on the pitcher's side anyway when guys are new to each other. |
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ManchvegasBob |
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Posts: 2076 (08/03/08 10:06 PM) Juan(abee) Hollinger |
Whatever he's doing, I hope Bay keeps on doing it. He's scoring runs like they are going out of style - 6 total over 3 games
Ramirez on the hand is hitting 0.600 in 3 games with a couple of homers, and probably is getting everyone excited in LA |
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Surferdad |
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Posts: 1573 (08/04/08 07:08 AM) Member |
Just proves Manny was dogging it with that "sore knee" crap. LA will learn what Boston and Cleveland already know.
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ugghhhh |
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Posts: 974 (08/05/08 09:13 AM) VIP Member |
The problem is when there is 2 on, 2 stikes in the 9th inning and Boston is down by 2. Do you trust Bay or Manny to get that hit. Last nights game was a
perfect example. Bay was in that spot in the 7th and flew out on pitch #2. What sucks is LA stole this deal......they get Manny FREE for two months, gave up
two crap propects that they had given up one, and when Manny leaves they get two draft picks they can use to replace them. Even Pitt gets those two player
along with both Hansen (who I think sucks anyways) and Moss.
So, the sox trade Manny, pay his salary, LOSE two draft picks (the Sox received two draft picks with Pedro left and got Buckholz and Elsbury) which could be like losing Elsbury and Buckholz, for Bay. This deal sucks. I know they probably had to do this as the players all basically said so, but I wish they held off giving up Moss. The outfielder they gave up when the got the deushbag Gagne is up for rookie of the year this year. Theo can draft and develope with the best of them, but his trades are sketchy. He tends to get the shiit end most often. And remember, he once said he would not have done the Beckett deal as Hanley Ramirez was his boy. Even the Nomar trade...it did energize the team and go them over the top, they didn't have any of the players from that trade the next year. But, that I can handle if it gets a World Series. I think the Sox had kind of thrown in the towel this year and are looking at next year. The Yanks and Angels did some good deals, while Theo really made the team worse. |
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JMost |
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Posts: 1142 (08/05/08 09:55 AM) Rondoism President |
I think that keeping Manny would have proven that they'd thrown in the towel, and were just holding on so they could get those two draft picks. What they
did was make the best of a situation Manny made unbearable. If you want the picks, you can always let Bay walk after next year and you'll get them back.
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Surferdad |
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Posts: 1578 (08/05/08 10:35 AM) Member |
It was not a great deal for the Sox, but I will reserve final judgement until they sign someone in the off-season with the freed-up money (Sabathia?). That
said, I still would have liked to see a couple of mid-level prospects come back to Boston.
I agree LA got a steal, but I don't really care. |
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