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ZekeMowattFan		#61	[-]
Posts: 997 (08/05/08 10:50 AM) 07-08 celtics17 Fantasy League Champion Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Really? LA is a .500 team. They gave up two major league-ready prospects for a guy who might only be there two months, and is not by himself good enough to make them title contenders. What's comical is they think the two draft picks they will get when he goes (which may only be one) will replace those guys. Pittsburgh made out way better than LA did. And to think, Frank McCourt almost bought the Red Sox. Am I glad he didn't...
ManchvegasBob		#62	[-]
Posts: 2080 (08/05/08 11:22 AM) Juan(abee) Hollinger Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	ughh - why did you wait till they had their first post-trade loss to rant on this? If it weren't for Bay, the Red Sox may have gone 0-3 against the lowly A's versus 3-0. Getting Bay instead of playing out the season with Ramirez to me means that they DIDN'T want to throw in the towel. The last game where they lost 2-9 to the Angels and the Red Sox committed 4 errors (minus that game, their average of 0.5 errors/game would rank 4th best in the AL) was the red flag I needed to see. And the 1-5 record at home against the Yanks and Angels with Manny being Manny sealed the deal. There are good distractions, and Manny had become a bad one quickly. So much was going wrong that this season was shaping up to be a 4th place finish if things didn't change, and you can't argue with the unanimous club house vote to deal Manny (except for Ortiz perhaps). Playing out the string and waiting for the draft picks may be nice, but Bay is a gamer who is ready to produce now (see Zeke's earlier post), and I don't think the Red Sox want to wait for draft picks in lieu of another run at a title. And I don't know about you, but there is a lot of flash in the pan stuff out there, and I'm hoping that Ellsbury and Bucholz are not that, as they both have had their struggles. Bird in the hand is better than two in the bush as they say, as along the bird isn't Cuckoo like Manny.
Surferdad		#63	[-]
Posts: 1579 (08/05/08 11:40 AM) Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	ZekeMowattFan wrote: Really? LA is a .500 team. They gave up two major league-ready prospects for a guy who might only be there two months, and is not by himself good enough to make them title contenders. What's comical is they think the two draft picks they will get when he goes (which may only be one) will replace those guys... 1. One of the best RH hitters in baseball for two months is better than prospects when you are in a weak division. 2. NO ONE is by himself good enough to make a team a title contender, especially in baseball. 3. They don't have to pay Manny's salary 4. They get the picks. Sounds like a great deal to me. I don't see LA's record as relevant to the discussion.
ManchvegasBob		#64	[-]
Posts: 2081 (08/05/08 11:47 AM) Juan(abee) Hollinger Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Don't mean to stray from the Manny debate, but I didn't realize that Hideki Okajima was leading the AL in blow saves with 7 already for the year. What's up with that?
ZekeMowattFan		#65	[-]
Posts: 999 (08/05/08 12:49 PM) 07-08 celtics17 Fantasy League Champion Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Surferdad wrote: ZekeMowattFan wrote: Really? LA is a .500 team. They gave up two major league-ready prospects for a guy who might only be there two months, and is not by himself good enough to make them title contenders. What's comical is they think the two draft picks they will get when he goes (which may only be one) will replace those guys... 1. One of the best RH hitters in baseball for two months is better than prospects when you are in a weak division. 2. NO ONE is by himself good enough to make a team a title contender, especially in baseball. 3. They don't have to pay Manny's salary 4. They get the picks. Sounds like a great deal to me. I don't see LA's record as relevant to the discussion. 1. For this year, maybe. I highly doubt they win a title this year, and may still struggle to make the playoffs. This was not the time for them to go for it, IMO. They are not going to just replace those guys with draft picks, and next year, with potentially no Manny (yes, I heard him say he wants to finish his career in LA - where have I heard that before? ), and no trading chips, how will they field a good team? That organization is a mess right now. 2. Agreed, but my point is that an already good team might need one guy (esp. one like Manny) to put them over the hump. The Dodgers do not fit that profile. 3. That means very little to LA, who has a higher payroll than Boston. In fact, the Red Sox still even out monetarily, since LA will likely have to pay the luxury tax on his salary, and the Red Sox won't. 4. They get one draft pick guaranteed (sandwich pick between first and second rounds). If Manny goes to a team drafting in the top half of the first round, or a team that's already signed another type A free agent (and thus already forfeited its first round pick), they get nothing else. That's potentially very little return to a team that just gave up two major-league ready prospects. I'm thrilled he went to LA, instead of a serious contender.
ugghhhh		#66	[-]
Posts: 978 (08/06/08 12:30 PM) VIP Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I'd rather Manny for the rest of the year and keep the two draft picks when he leaves. Theo drafts well so that would benefit the Sox. They could then use Moss in left or in another trade for middle relief this year. The two prospects LA gave up? One was in single A and probably would never come up, and the other had burned his bridges with the club and wastn't coming up, so the draft picks they get can't be much worse. And they get a FREE Manny for the playoffs. Bay may be a good player, but like I said, when they are down in the bottom of the 9th, who would you rather come up to the plate? I just think they would be better off going for one more title and then dumping his ass. Manny + 7 million + 2 draft picks = Jason Bay?
Surferdad		#67	[-]
Posts: 1592 (08/06/08 01:28 PM) Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	ugh, in your equation, you forgot they also gave up Craig Hansen and Brandon Moss, so Jason Bay appears even more valuable using that math. Like I said, I don't think it was a great deal for the Sox by any means, but let me see if I can put a little rationale around the loss of draft picks. The main thing to consider is the odds that ANY draft pick actually pans out. Not all draft picks, even high ones, become good ballplayers, That's sort of obvious, but let's assume for the sake of argument that only one of the two picks that the Sox would have gotten becomes a serviceable or even very good big league ballplayer. Then the next question is whether that player would have been as good as Jason Bay. Again, the answer is maybe yes, maybe no. I'll say one thng: I would rather have Jason Bay than Brandon Moss in left field, if that's any indication. The last question to ask if are you trading to upgrade the present team or a future Sox team? I think it's quite arguable that the Sox are looking at the present right now more than the future. Defending champs in a position to capture the wild card, if not the division. Given all that, the draft picks just didn't seem to be that important. The contrary argument is that keeping Manny actually gives you the best chance to repeat this season becasue of the Papi protection and bottom of the 9th scenarios, etc. I can't argue with that, except to say that even the players wanted him out. Maybe there are things more improtant than winning, even to those playing the game. Last Edited By: Surferdad 08/06/08 01:31 PM. Edited 1 times.
Jughead		#68	[-]
Posts: 2125 (08/06/08 01:46 PM) Mamba Sucks Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I liked the trade cause we were going to lose Manny at the end of the year anyway. No way were the Sox going to come close to paying him 20 mill/yr as he approaches 40 yrs old. Maybe he won't get that, but whatever Manny gets in the offseason, the Sox would never match it. When you also take into consideration that Manny was highly likely to cash the season in and fester like a gonadal tumor in the clubhouse, you can evaluate the trade with a simple equation. Craig Hansen, Brandon Moss, and 2 Draft Picks = Jason Bay. You can debate the value of that all you want, but Bay is a two-time All-Star and keeps the line-up potent this season. We don't care about the money because the owners eat that and because we'll have more of it to spend next year thanks to the lack of Manny's contract or the desire to re-sign him.
JMost		#69	[-]
Posts: 1145 (08/06/08 01:57 PM) Rondoism President Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Manny + 7 million + 2 draft picks = Jason Bay? For this year it's more like: 2 months of the 2008 Manny + Hansen and Moss - their salaries + Bay's remaining salary = 2 months of Jason Bay + not having Manny drag the team down . The Sox are out closer to $1 million than $7 million compared to what they were going to be paying pre-trade. Hansen stinks and shows no signs of not stinking anytime soon. Moss wouldn't make the playoff roster. Manny's and Bay's numbers are very similar this year. The money is small change to the Sox. The peace of mind is priceless. I don't see a lot to complain about. For next year the Sox have given up draft choices, Hansen and Moss for a year of Bay. Doesn't look so bad for 2009 does it? After that who knows? If Bay leaves, you get your draft picks back. If he stays, only time will tell whether he is worth Hansen, Moss and the picks. It doesn't matter though. The deal had to be done, even the players say so, and Theo got the best deal he could. Last Edited By: JMost 08/06/08 04:33 PM. Edited 1 times.
ugghhhh		#70	[-]
Posts: 981 (08/06/08 03:46 PM) VIP Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I know...but for this year, Manny is more proven in the playoffs. How many games has Bay won? Worse case is they let Manny walk, and they still have Hansen, Moss, 2 draft picks to put into a trade next year with probably more options. I like Bay, but thought they gave up way too much. They should have at least held on to Moss...then friggin need middle relief and didn't do a damn thing about it. I hope Bay kicks ass and place awesome....seems like a good kid and they have him under contract for next year. And with him here, Moss doesn't really have a spot. I don't know, time will tell on this one and I hope they don't regret it come October. 4 for 5 is wonderful againt Texas, but we need that against the good teams.
ZekeMowattFan		#71	[-]
Posts: 1003 (08/07/08 10:16 AM) 07-08 celtics17 Fantasy League Champion Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	This Manny guy sounds terriffic. Can he pitch?
ManchvegasBob	Have you heard? There's a brand new Byrd in Beantown.	#72	[-]
Posts: 2115 (08/12/08 05:10 PM) Juan(abee) Hollinger Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	And he can pitch! Seems like a good locker room guy that has his A-game on since the all-star break. You can never have enough pitching, and the Red Sox aren't getting any from Wakefield or Colon anytime soon, and Bucholz has been a train wreck the last couple of months. As Papi got some pop back and Ellsbury found his bat, now all they have to worry about is Mike Lowell and Jason Varitek being to get on base.
ManchvegasBob		#73	[-]
Posts: 2125 (08/15/08 10:29 AM) Juan(abee) Hollinger Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	From the Globe - here's an interesting stat on Dice-K after last nights thumping of the Rangers (again): "He's the best in the game at getting into trouble and getting out of it," Coco Crisp said. "I don't know what it is. Keep on doing it, though, I guess. You've come to deal with it now. You've got to stay prepared for anything." Such as six hits and five walks. Matsuzaka extended his run of wizardry, bringing his opponents' record with the bases loaded to an astounding 0 for 12, after getting Ramon Vazquez to strike out in that situation in the second inning. Matsuzaka also improved his record over his last nine starts to 6-1 with a 1.91 ERA. If it were me, I'd rather do what ever he does BEFORE the bases are loaded, but you can't argue with the results . . .
Surferdad		#74	[-]
Posts: 1621 (08/15/08 10:58 AM) Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I'm glad you brought this up, MB. Dice-K is a unique pitcher, no doubt. He does give up a lot of walks, but IMO, there is a very good reason. It's not that he loses the ability to throw strikes; that's always there. The guy simply refuses to give in to batters and give them what they are looking for. It's a double-edged sword, no doubt, but based on his record and ERA you can make the argument that his approach is successful. Last night he got into a jam in the 2nd inning and loaded up the bases with several walks. He then got out of it by moving the ball around the zone and struck out the batter (don't recall who) on a pitch that was out of the zone to end the inning. Lesser pitchers get themselves into trouble by walking batters and then grooving a pitch, but he refuses to give in.
JMost		#75	[-]
Posts: 1156 (08/15/08 11:41 AM) Rondoism President Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I think most of us figured that sooner or later the walks would kill him, but so far he's proven us wrong. The record and ERA are hard to argue with. He's frustrating as hell to watch though.
ZekeMowattFan		#76	[-]
Posts: 1012 (08/15/08 12:06 PM) 07-08 celtics17 Fantasy League Champion Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I still think so - Dice-K plays with fire by putting so many men on base. I think the 0-12 with the bases loaded stat is at least part luck. If Ortiz goes through an 0-12 stretch, will people start talking about how the league has figured him out? They'll say, no, it's just 12 ABs, he'll figure it out. So will the collection of major leaguers - as the saying goes, they get paid too. I'm not a huge fan of the Byrd pickup. I don't think he's any better than Pauley, or Hansack (guys that have come up before to make starts). He's been "hot", but that's not really a good indicator that he will continue to be hot. OTOH, it won't cost us any prospects, and the $2M they're spending on him won't affect their spending elsewhere. I suppose it's OK if he just makes a few spot starts until Wake is healthy again, and if we're OK with him being left off the postseason rosters (assuming the staff is fully healthy). This, and his HGH mess, makes this essentially "free" pickup lose a lot of luster.
Surferdad		#77	[-]
Posts: 1624 (08/15/08 12:26 PM) Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	My view on Byrd is that beggars can't be choosers. He was probably the most seasoned reliable pitcher they could find. And I agree that the post-AS break record is probably flukey.
Jughead		#78	[-]
Posts: 2131 (08/16/08 07:45 AM) Mamba Sucks Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I was thinking about Dice-K's ability to pitch out of a jam back during his first year here and it reminded me of how the last pitcher I saw handle that pressure so mastefully was Pedro Martinez. While Dice-K has a ways to go, I've always felt this is a great sign of how good he will be by the time he reaches 30 years old.
ZekeMowattFan		#79	[-]
Posts: 1017 (08/23/08 02:28 PM) 07-08 celtics17 Fantasy League Champion Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	This isn't really baseball as much as it is gossip, but I heard third-hand from someone who works for the Sox that the reason for Varitek's divorce is that he's been banging Heidi Watney. There's a joke in there somewhere about swinging and missing a lot, but I'll leave that to the rest of you. Also, remember this is third-hand, so I'd take it with a grain of salt.
ManchvegasBob		#80	[-]
Posts: 2174 (08/26/08 08:23 AM) Juan(abee) Hollinger Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Manny Ramirez update - he's gone 2-14 after his blistering start with the Dodgers, who dropped 4 straight to the Philles and are 3-7 in their last 10. Wouldn't that have been something if he continued to hit 0.600 with the Dodgers?

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